S3Ep31 || 10 Minutes at a Time || Pt. 1 with Kelsey Rootenberg
We are kicking off our first part of a two-part conversation with Kelsey Rose Rootenberg. She's a friend of Sara's and a friend of mine and her journey is not linear. Not only is it not linear, but she's actually in a phase of no longer being sober.
In this episode, we talk about the impact substances have on different people and the realization Kelsey had after getting sober of weed. We talk about her transition from being embarrassed by it to accepting it as part of her nonlinear journey. And we discuss the luxury that some people have of not liking the high that comes from substances. Kelsey also shares the importance of having coping skills that align with you and that you can turn to when needed.
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EP 31 - Kelsey Rootenberg (Pt. 1)
[00:00:00] Kelsey: I also grew up in LA.
[00:00:01] Cait: Mm-hmm.
[00:00:02] Kelsey: So literally everyone and their mother...
[00:00:05] Cait: ...yeah.
[00:00:06] Kelsey: Was smoking weed. And so even after I got out of treatment, I didn't leave treatment after eight months being proud to be sober. And I didn't leave especially being proud to be sober of weed.
[00:00:18] Cait: Welcome to the Clearheaded podcast, your guide to sober care.
[00:00:22] Cait: I'm your host, Cait, and I'm so glad that you're here. Maybe you're on your way to work or you're ready to wind down for the night, whatever the case may be - I'm really happy to be here with you. All of these episodes drop in on people's moments of clarity surrounding their sobriety. Before we get started on this conversation, I want to ground each other with a little bit of breath work.
[00:00:45] Cait: Let's start by taking a big, deep breath in... and out.
[00:00:55] Cait: Okay. Let's get Clearheaded.
[00:00:58] Cait: We've said it once and we'll say it again and again, and again, sobriety isn't linear for everyone. For some people, it really is. And we'll get to an episode with a guest whose journey was super linear in a couple weeks.
[00:01:14] Cait: But, for this episode, we are kicking off our first part one of a two part conversation with Kelsey Rose Rootenberg. She's a friend of Sara's and a friend of mine and her journey is not linear. Not only is it not linear, but she's actually in a phase of no longer being sober. This first episode, we're gonna talk about the backstory of why Kelsey got sober in the first place.
[00:01:45] Cait: And I think the theme that you will notice is that it wasn't necessarily her choice. We say all the time that you have to make the decision. And you do. You do. Not for anybody else, but just for yourself. And that's what we talk about in this convo. Sara pops in a little bit. And I think you're really gonna gain a lot from it.
[00:02:09] Cait: We're gonna drop in on Kelsey and I talking about OCD and how I feel like I might have it.
[00:02:17] Cait: I couldn't ground myself.
[00:02:18] Kelsey: So you were literally relying on your OCD thoughts to like to reality.
[00:02:22] Cait: To tell me who I was, yeah.
[00:02:23] Kelsey: Oh my God.
[00:02:24] Cait: Is that not crazy or what?
[00:02:26] Kelsey: It...is! And that's why you need therapy.
[00:02:28] Cait: I need therapy.
[00:02:30] Kelsey: No, because you say the things out loud and then you're like, I can't believe I just said that I sound insane.
[00:02:36] Cait: I know.
[00:02:37] Kelsey: Cause you are.
[00:02:38] Cait: Cause you are.
[00:02:39] Kelsey: It's done. It's actually the craziest thing. And for me, like, I didn't know, I had OCD therapy. OCD. I never was like I have OCD. When I was in rehab the last time, my therapist kept me after group therapy and was like, I have OCD.
[00:02:54] Kelsey: And I was like, I'm not clean. I don't care about blah, blah, blah. There's no way. And she was like, yeah but have you ever heard of like, it's called...I have magical thinking OCD? And I was like, what's that? And she was like, I don't remember what she said, but I remember for the first time being like, some because I had genuine belief that I was the only person on the planet who had ever had the thoughts that I had. Ever.
[00:03:21] Kelsey: Because they were so like...no one shamed me, but I shamed myself of like...
[00:03:25] Cait: Right.
[00:03:26] Kelsey: It's insane that I'm 22 years old. And I still sleep in my parents' bed every night. Because I'm so scared. I was like, I'm the only person that thinks these things. And then she was like, no. Like it's one plus one equals two, you have OCD.
[00:03:41] Kelsey: And then realizing that was like, actually changed my life. It was amazing.
[00:03:45] Cait: Because it's like freeing to not feel so alone. And also that like, nothing's technically wrong with you. Like, you can have a label where like, yeah maybe somebody would say that like having OCD does mean something is wrong with you like you're not normal. But like actually no, there's enough people have it that there's a freaking label.
[00:04:04] Kelsey: Literally. And what I learned from that is like, I never realized how insane and like enlightening it would be for me to be like other people think the same thing as you.
[00:04:17] Cait: Yeah.
[00:04:18] Kelsey: It was, I will never forget where I was sitting, who I was talking to.
[00:04:23] Kelsey: It was actually so crazy and amazing. And then I had one session with an OCD therapist who's so sweet. And I was like, yeah my therapist said I might have this because of this. Because I think these thoughts about my parents and about myself and about like, when I take a shower and then she was like, yeah. Everyone I talk to thinks that.
[00:04:48] Kelsey: And I was like, what? It was crazy. It was actually life changing.
[00:04:53] Cait: So what did you do? Like...
[00:04:54] Kelsey: ...yeah.
[00:04:55] Cait: What did she tell you to do?
[00:04:56] Kelsey: Well, I went to OCD therapy for probably like a year, once a week. Virtual.
[00:05:01] Cait: Mm-hmm.
[00:05:02] Kelsey: And...
[00:05:04] Cait: ...wait when was this? If it was virtual it was like recent?
[00:05:07] Kelsey: Yes! It was in the pandemic. Because I went to rehab August 10th, 2020.
[00:05:15] Cait: Wow. So this is like quick.
[00:05:17] Kelsey: Really quick, yeah.
[00:05:18] Cait: I mean, not. It's like two years, but...
[00:05:21] Kelsey: ...right. It wasn't like, I still could email her any day. Like I had a couple months ago when I was just having a really hard time and things were coming up and I just had a one off session with her.
[00:05:31] Kelsey: But eventually it became like, oh, I didn't need to see her every single week, especially because I go to therapy twice a week anyway.
[00:05:36] Cait: Mm-hmm.
[00:05:36] Kelsey: But I realized my coping skill with OCD is I have to say it out loud to someone. And like there's a big thing with OCD that's like reassurance, like you don't want your coping skill to be reassurance.
[00:05:48] Kelsey: Like I don't want to call you and be like, please tell me that I'm gonna be okay. And then you you're gonna be okay. It's not that.
[00:05:55] Cait: Yeah.
[00:05:55] Kelsey: It's more of just like, and I'm having these thoughts and all this stuff. And my therapist taught me maybe, maybe not. Like that's the tactic - maybe, maybe not of like, I'd be like, I'm gonna die today. Which I couldn't even say back then.
[00:06:11] Cait: Yeah.
[00:06:12] Kelsey: Because I'd touched… my compulsion, I had a forehead touching thing. It's like every intrusive thought I had during the day, I'd be touch, touch, touch, touch, touch my forehead. And she would say maybe, maybe you are, maybe you're not. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. But sometimes I'll have an intrusive thought like, that building is gonna fall on me and I'm gonna break my neck. And my life is gonna change and I'll spiral.
[00:06:33] Cait: Mm-hmm.
[00:06:33] Kelsey: And then all I could do is maybe it will, maybe it won't.
[00:06:37] Kelsey: Another thing is like reinforcement, but not reassurance. Like, I had the thing that I know a lot of people have where it's like, I'm in the shower and I can't hear anything. So I think that someone came in and murdered everyone and robbed me.
[00:06:48] Cait: Yes.
[00:06:49] Kelsey: And it's like, my therapist, the first time I told her that was like, has that ever happened?
[00:06:53] Kelsey: And I was like, no. And she's like... I know. And she was like, how many times have you had that thought? And I was like, every shower I've ever had. And she's like, so based on history, like do you think it's gonna happen? And I was like, well, what if this is the one time? And then she's like, then it's the one time. And I'm wrong.
[00:07:11] Kelsey: She told me… here's a crazy thing that actually shifted everything to put my trust in her. Because she would tell me exposures she would do for other people. Since mine was mostly just talking it out.
[00:07:23] Cait: Mm-hmm.
[00:07:24] Kelsey: She told me one time she wrote on her own Facebook page that she had died...to show her client that it wasn't going to happen.
[00:07:32] Cait: Like the therapist went on their own Facebook page?
[00:07:34] Kelsey: It would be like if I went on Facebook and was like, “Kelsey has died,” for one hour. And then she took it down after an hour and she was like, I'm still alive.
[00:07:41] Cait: Whoa!
[00:07:42] Kelsey: How...?!
[00:07:43] Cait: Really wild and also like, did they...was there like a just kidding? Or like...?
[00:07:47] Kelsey: She was like, this was not real. I don't know. But I think about it to this day. And she told me like a year and a half ago and I think about it to this day.
[00:07:56] Kelsey: She was awesome. She would be like, and it was never like, that's not gonna happen.
[00:08:00] Cait: Right.
[00:08:00] Kelsey: It was just like...that sucks that you're thinking about that. And also like, you get it. You have OCD. But like -.
[00:08:08] Cait: Yeah, now we know.
[00:08:09] Kelsey: Now we know! I've diagnosed you. But like people who don't get it, also just don't get it as everything goes.
[00:08:15] Cait: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:08:16] Kelsey: But it's like, I never said my intrusive thoughts out loud to other people because it would be like, that's not gonna happen.
[00:08:23] Cait: Yeah.
[00:08:24] Kelsey: What are you talking about, you know? So...
[00:08:28] Cait: I think the reason I've never like, said them or voiced it, is because there's part of me that's like, if I say it, then it's true.
[00:08:36] Kelsey: That's my whole thing.
[00:08:37] Cait: So I just keep it in my head and I was kind of the opposite. I've been the opposite. I thought everybody was like that.
[00:08:46] Kelsey: Wow.
[00:08:47] Cait: And it's the same with ADD. I just got diagnosed with ADD.
[00:08:51] Kelsey: Welcome to the club.
[00:08:53] Cait: I thought everyone couldn't finish anything.
[00:08:56] Kelsey: No, because that's how we talk. Because we say, ugh, I'm so OCD. Oh my God, my ADD like, blah, blah, blah. It's like, no, you know what I thought about? Sometimes I have to remember that I am mentally ill. And not TikTok mentally ill of like, oh, I actually, like I have mental illness.
[00:09:15] Cait: Like it's true.
[00:09:15] Kelsey: Right. Versus like a - oh my God I'm so bipolar today. Like, I feel bipolar. Like, no you don't! You literally don't. You're just feeling moody. There's a difference between like, oh, I'm so ADHD. Like, ugh, I didn't finish my homework. It's like, no, I'm ADHD, I cannot function. It's rude, but that's crazy way to live. Like everyone does this.
[00:09:38] Cait: I really did. Because my mom was the same way. I lived in a house where like...Bible, Kardashian.
[00:09:43] Kelsey: Bible.
[00:09:44] Cait: Every single room in the house, wasn't the wall wasn't finished being painted. So I just literally thought that my mom's a little kooky. I'm gonna be a little kooky, but most people just have a really hard time. And then I'm like, no, and now I start on medication.
[00:10:01] Cait: I'm like, I'm a freaking powerhouse.
[00:10:03] Kelsey: I can do anything.
[00:10:05] Cait: I can finish dishes and put them away. And guess what? Dry them in between.
[00:10:11] Kelsey: That's nuts.
[00:10:11] Cait: What?!
[00:10:12] Kelsey: In the same space?
[00:10:13] Cait: In the same space. And not go start a movie, and get out a book and decide I want to watercolor. Like I can do one thing at a time. Wild.
[00:10:23] Kelsey: That like, that's not everybody. Like some people can really just do that.
[00:10:27] Cait: I know.
[00:10:28] Kelsey: I get it.
[00:10:29] Cait: Okay. I feel like that's a whole episode. Really truly, we've had such a precursor to this conversation.
[00:10:37] Kelsey: We've diagnosed you. Yeah.
[00:10:42] Cait: Sara's in studio today. She's on a mic. She's off camera. She will pop in. Kelsey...
[00:10:48] Sara: Yeah whenever I just feel like I need to say something, interject.
[00:10:52] Cait: She's our voice of reason.
[00:10:54] Kelsey: Reason, got it.
[00:10:55] Cait: Our guidng voice. Kelsey and Sara know each other from acting class. And we know each other through Sara. And honestly, this is like the second time we're hanging out in person, which is just...
[00:11:06] Kelsey: ...weird.
[00:11:06] Cait: Weird, but...
[00:11:07] Kelsey: ...doesn't feel like it.
[00:11:07] Cait: No, it doesn't. And you have such a journey and a story that you're on. You've been on. You're gonna continue to go on. And we're gonna dive into it today.
[00:11:19] Cait: And thank you for being here. And being open to having this conversation, because it is a unique one. It's unique and it's also not. And I think everybody will...okay, let's just get into it should we?
[00:11:34] Kelsey: Yeah.
[00:11:34] Cait: We're going to take it back. And we're going to kick it off with the same question I ask everybody, which is if you can go back and think about the moment of clarity when you realize that not that just alcohol wasn't serving you because now we know that that wasn't...
[00:11:48] Kelsey: ...mm-hmm.
[00:11:48] Cait: Your vice. But whatever substance was, was no longer serving you and take me back.
[00:11:55] Kelsey: So I was like trying to think about this today, because I don't know if I ever had a moment where I was like and I don't know, everyone's moments are different.
[00:12:03] Cait: Right.
[00:12:03] Kelsey: But I know that there was never a time where I was like, ugh, I gotta get sober right now. Like, yeah, right. But the two moments that I look back on and think like, there, it was, if I had to put it on. In July of 2020, I got sick. I got this thing called Cannabinoid hyperemesis syndrome.
[00:12:24] Cait: Woah.
[00:12:24] Kelsey: And basically like my stomach stopped working. Like for 15 days I threw up everything. And I had like colonoscopy and endoscopy at a horrible doctor, whatever. And there's a video of me waking up, like with the anesthesia or whatever, they put me under, a video I took to send to my bestfriend. And I was like, these stupid doctors like told me it's my marijuana intake.
[00:12:46] Kelsey: Like, there's like, they probably talked to my mom, like, blah, blah, blah. I thought they were all conspiring against me. But in that moment, I didn't know. But now I know like that's when something had to change. But interestingly enough, what ended up happening is I went to rehab again. And I didn't even, under my knowledge, go to rehab for because my drug of choice was weed. And I was always embarrassed about that.
[00:13:13] Cait: Okay.
[00:13:13] Kelsey: I was like everyone smokes weed. How can it be weed?
[00:13:15] Cait: Mm-hmm.
[00:13:16] Kelsey: But when I went into rehab, it was more like emotional and like my quality of life was not anything at the moment. At that moment.
[00:13:25] Kelsey: But to go into rehab, you obviously have to get sober. So I got rid of everything and I was like, I'll see you soon. I'll see in a month. And I ended up being there for eight months. But when I had the first meeting there with the psychiatrist and he was like, you're bipolar. That was the first time in my life where I was like, I'm so...not grateful, but like the only way this could have happened is if I was sober. So like if I had to pick a moment, it would be that moment of like, again, I, I remember exactly where I was sitting.
[00:13:57] Kelsey: I, I remember so much of it, of like everything made sense. ‘Cause I have bipolar too. And I was like, maybe nothing in my life has been working because I've been high and things make sense to me now because I know I'm bipolar. And I didn't know I was bipolar because I was too high to understand that I'm bipolar.
[00:14:16] Kelsey: Right. So it was in that moment that I was for the first time that I was like, oh, weed has way more negative than it does… than I thought.
[00:14:26] Cait: I mean, it's interesting because you said that you felt embarrassed about it and I understand what you mean by that. Weed is such a...I mean we talk on here all the time about how alcohol is socially acceptable.
[00:14:40] Kelsey: Yeah.
[00:14:41] Cait: Weed is socially acceptable in a very different way.
[00:14:43] Kelsey: Mm-hmm.
[00:14:44] Cait: Where it said that you can't get addicted to it. And it's the safer drug of choice. And it's harmless and you smoke in the grass and...
[00:14:54] Kelsey: ...it's medicine.
[00:14:54] Cait: It's medicine. And I think there are avenues where that is true.
[00:14:58] Kelsey: Mm-hmm.
[00:14:59] Cait: And I don't wanna discredit all of that reasoning. But it's the reasoning that takes, is like the front runner.
[00:15:06] Kelsey: Yeah.
[00:15:06] Cait: When people talk about it.
[00:15:08] Kelsey: Mm-hmm.
[00:15:08] Cait: How did you digest and accept that that was like your problem? How did you transition from like embarrassment to acceptance?
[00:15:18] Kelsey: Honestly, recently.
[00:15:19] Cait: Really?
[00:15:19] Kelsey: If I'm being completely honest. Yeah, because...
[00:15:21] Cait: Yes, please be completely honest.
[00:15:23] Kelsey: Yes. Because my like relationship with using started when I was young. As everyone's does. But when I was in high school, I did a lot of Xanax.
[00:15:35] Cait: Okay.
[00:15:35] Kelsey: And just because I was depressed and miserable and whatever. And I went to treatment for the first time and then I came back and I was like, I'm not gonna do pills and I'm not gonna smoke or I'm not gonna drink. I'm just gonna smoke. So everyone celebrate me anyway because I'm mostly sober. So I literally would say like, it's the 29th, like I'm sober mostly.
[00:15:57] Kelsey: Like I don't have alcohol anymore.
[00:15:58] Cait: Right.
[00:15:59] Kelsey: I don't have pills. So my whole six to eight years before I went to treatment again, I was like, well, I am sober. Even though I smoke weed, I convinced myself and everyone around me that it didn't count. It was like, it's just weed. Like everyone's drinking, but I didn't drink kind of thing.
[00:16:17] Cait: Yeah.
[00:16:18] Kelsey: So when I went to treatment at the beginning of the pandemic, after I got sick and everyone was like, I have alcohol and I have this and I have this and I was like, I just have weed. Like, there's no way that this is my drug of choice because everyone and their mother, I also grew up in LA.
[00:16:36] Cait: Mm-hmm.
[00:16:37] Kelsey: So literally everyone and their mother.
[00:16:40] Cait: Yeah.
[00:16:41] Kelsey: Was smoking weed. And so even after I got out treatment, I didn't leave treatment after eight months being proud to be sober. And I didn't leave, especially being proud to be sober of weed.
[00:16:53] Cait: Mm-hmm.
[00:16:53] Kelsey: And I remember like being at a birthday party in April of this year. And someone making a comment, a stranger about like the gross romanticism of weed.
[00:17:05] Cait: Mm-hmm.
[00:17:05] Kelsey: And I was so angry and then I don't know why that did it, but I, that is the first time I could remember being like, my drug of choice is weed. Instead of like, because if I...I used to be like, well, my drug of choice is weed but like I also used to do this and I do this too. And like, blah, blah, blah. It's like, it's just weed.
[00:17:26] Cait: Yeah.
[00:17:26] Kelsey: Weed is an altering substance.
[00:17:27] Cait: Yeah.
[00:17:28] Kelsey: That's all that matters.
[00:17:29] Cait: Right.
[00:17:29] Kelsey: Yeah.
[00:17:29] Cait: That's a good perspective to have and gain. And also, be honest about that it that's like a road. Like you kind of got to walk through the steps of that road.
[00:17:38] Kelsey: Mm-hmm.
[00:17:39] Cait: To really see it for what it is for you.
[00:17:41] Kelsey: Right.
[00:17:41] Cait: And in your case.
[00:17:42] Cait: And it's very different for everyone I can imagine. Like, I hate weed.
[00:17:48] Kelsey: Mh-hmm.
[00:17:49] Cait: Hate it. Hate being high. There's only like...Sara's laughing.
[00:17:52] Sara: I also hate weed.
[00:17:53] Cait: We like hate it.
[00:17:54] Sara: I mean, I used to smoke a ton of weed, but I stopped. And then when I started again, it just made me so paranoid and like...
[00:18:01] Kelsey: ...yeah.
[00:18:01] Sara: I just like, couldn't.
[00:18:03] Kelsey: Mm-hmm.
[00:18:03] Cait: But that's a luxury of not liking that high.
[00:18:07] Kelsey: It is a luxury.
[00:18:08] Cait: Just like when I think about people who are like, well, I don't really like alcohol, you know, that's not my problem. Well, that… you're lucky.
[00:18:17] Kelsey: Exactly.
[00:18:18] Cait: You're lucky.
[00:18:18] Kelsey: Yep.
[00:18:19] Cait: Because it's not about the substance. Really it's more about like what your, what it does for you.
[00:18:26] Kelsey: Mm-hmm.
[00:18:27] Cait: Meaning substances impact people differently.
[00:18:31] Kelsey: Yeah.
[00:18:31] Cait: And for me, alcohol really negatively impacted me. And for you, weed really negatively impacted you.
[00:18:37] Kelsey: Mm-hmm.
[00:18:38] Cait: So, because it negatively impacted you and you had to make the choice to separate from it.
[00:18:44] Kelsey: Mm-hmm.
[00:18:45] Cait: What did you like lean into, in place of it?
[00:18:50] Cait: Like, did you do meditation? Did you read a book? What did you do?
[00:18:56] Kelsey: I'm very grateful that I, my beginning of being sober process was in treatment.
[00:19:03] Cait: Mm-hmm.
[00:19:03] Kelsey: Because I was with a million people that were doing the exact same thing. And my therapist there said this funny thing that I'll never forget. She was like, if you get sober during the pandemic, it's like you're sober in dog years.
[00:19:19] Cait: Ha!
[00:19:19] Kelsey: Which I thought...
[00:19:19] Sara: So funny because you - that's the first thing you said to me when I told you I was sober.
[00:19:23] Kelsey: Really?
[00:19:24] Sara: You were like, oh, you got sober during the pandemic. So you're like what? Like three years sober.
[00:19:28] Kelsey: Yeah.
[00:19:29] Sara: That's so funny.
[00:19:30] Kelsey: I'm hilarious, honestly, in retrospect. I’m glad I said that to you. But yeah, so she said that, which made me feel so much better. Because it was like there's a pandemic and you can't do anything and we're taking away your coping skill.
[00:19:45] Cait: Yeah.
[00:19:45] Kelsey: For life right now.
[00:19:46] Cait: Mm-hmm.
[00:19:46] Kelsey: So I'm really glad I had a lot of people to do that with.
[00:19:50] Kelsey: Especially in such a structured place. I went to meetings, but I was, I've always been so much more intimidated by meetings. Every time I've gone, I've left being like, I'm... I love it here. And then it's always harder for me to go back for some reason.
[00:20:05] Cait: Huh.
[00:20:05] Kelsey: But being in group therapy all day long. I thrive in group therapy because I talk.
[00:20:12] Cait: Yeah.
[00:20:12] Kelsey: More than anyone I've ever met. But having those experiences, which have also obviously happened in the rooms too, but kind of what I was telling you about earlier with OCD having the experience of, oh my God, you have thought the exact same thing that I've thought?
[00:20:28] Cait: Yeah.
[00:20:29] Kelsey: How is that possible? That was my biggest thing.
[00:20:31] Kelsey: But in terms of like coping skills being sort of sober. I'm a big crafter. So I did a lot of crafts. I watched a lot of TV. It was, it's all about distraction for me. And another good piece of advice that I got, because one day at a time, obviously amazing, but 10 minutes at a time.
[00:20:48] Cait: Ahh!
[00:20:48] Kelsey: Yeah. 10 minute increments it's all I could do. It's all I can do now. And it's applied to different parts of my life to.
[00:20:54] Cait: Yeah.
[00:20:55] Kelsey: Distraction.
[00:20:56] Cait: Oh, that's so good. Like 10 minutes at a time. Because really, truly too like in the beginning and these cravings come up and you're in it, like thinking about the finishing, the rest of that day sober, can be what pushes you to go into that trigger.
[00:21:13] Kelsey: Yeah.
[00:21:14] Cait: Like to go right to the drink or right to the weed or right to the whatever.
[00:21:18] Kelsey: Mm-hmm.
[00:21:19] Cait: So just saying, okay, I'm gonna set a timer for 10 minutes. Just breathe through it and see how I feel.
[00:21:24] Kelsey: Right.
[00:21:24] Cait: And you know, because so often after 10 minutes is gone, you've figured out something else to do.
[00:21:31] Kelsey: It's deflated a bit.
[00:21:32] Cait: It has deflated. You've popped yourself out of it. You've rationalized it.
[00:21:37] Cait: I think that's a word.
[00:21:38] Kelsey: Sure.
[00:21:38] Cait: So that is really good advice.
[00:21:42] Cait: I hope you've gained a lot from the conversation so far. Tune in next week when we discuss where Kelsey's at now, why she chose to not be sober anymore, and where she thinks it's heading.
[00:21:57] Cait: Do you want to enhance your sober care routine? Head to clearheaded.co for tips, tricks, tools, and more on this episode.
[00:22:06] Cait: And if you're someone who likes to watch podcasts, we are on YouTube. Clearheaded podcast is sponsored by Free Spirits. Head to drinkfreespirits.com and use code clearheaded20 for 20% off your first order.
[00:22:21] Cait: This episode was recorded at The Wave podcasting studios and produced by Alexis Archuleta. All the music used was created by honeydu.
[00:22:29] Cait: Oh yeah, we have a Spotify playlist too. Ah, there's a lot to check out. Anyways. See you next week.